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| http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Chat_log_from_the_meeting_on_2023-11-07 | | http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Chat_log_from_the_meeting_on_2023-11-07 |
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| [12:05 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: any thoughts progress on voice?
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| [12:06 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well, and urgent but easy fix issue came up yesterday, with the macOS unmanaged libraries. I opened a Mantis and attached some updated libs
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| [12:07 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The only thing I have done the last week is to get the Windows viewer to build with Visual Studio 2022
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| [12:07 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Quite an accomplishment, that
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| [12:07 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus some other build issues on macOS because Apple has been creative again
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| [12:07 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: dayturn?
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| [12:07 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
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| [12:08 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: opensim is non-op on macOS until the new libs are swapped in to to dotnet6 branch
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| [12:08 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it?
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| [12:08 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yep
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| [12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, The change log shows the libraries as having been pushed to the code repo.
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| [12:08 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not had any issues
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| [12:09 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: great
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| [12:09 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: then macOS people will need to update
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| [12:09 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you start anything from terminal the signature isn't even checked
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| [12:09 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: I'm now a MacOS people. God fed up with Windoze.
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| [12:09 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: no ttrue
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| [12:09 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: this affects just nessie or all builds?
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| [12:10 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: macOS specifically, dotnet6 branch
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| [12:10 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: ty
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| [12:11 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what version of macOS?
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| [12:11 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it was a code signing issue, may have been my fault
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| [12:11 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The libs will run on any macOS 10.15-114.x
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| [12:11 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but code signing issue will break on all of them
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| [12:12 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oops I mean 10.5-latest
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| [12:12 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 10.15-latest
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| [12:12 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all right, you say you cannot sign it any more
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| [12:12 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can sign it, and did
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| [12:12 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the old ones runs perfecty fine
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| [12:12 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the problem has to do with the developer cerytificate needing to be renewed annually
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| [12:13 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The certificate I used to sign the macOS libs was originally created November 2022, and I got an email from Apple that they were going to expire and I needed to create new ones
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| [12:13 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure but the signature is never checked if it is just a lib running in some other process under BSD
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| [12:14 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: as part of creating new ones, I had to revoke the old cert, whiuch is the one used to sign the macOS unmanaged libs
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| [12:14 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when did you revoke it?
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| [12:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The day after I revoked the old cert, my server auto-retarts oensim evenry Monday morning, and it failed to start. Could not load any of the 3 unmanaged libs
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| [12:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: same result on x86_64 Mac and arm64 Mac
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| [12:15 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: hi kayaker
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| [12:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So I re-signed the same binaries with the new cert, dropped them in, and it worked again
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| [12:15 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: starting a simmulator now. not a pip
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| [12:15 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with the old libs
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| [12:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hmm, no idea why your result is different
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| [12:16 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: glad to hear though
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| [12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did push the new libs for mac, a hour or so ago
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| [12:16 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have an idea, lemme check
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| [12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and those where last week "code changes"
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| [12:16 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it did give me a scare, that others are having same problem, so I re-signed them and pushed the new ones to Mantis
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| [12:17 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: we need to understand this better. ideally should not have to re-sign unmanaged libs once a year
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| [12:17 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Gavin, perhaps we can look into this tigether away from meeting
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| [12:17 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure
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| [12:18 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so if anyone usins macOS is having trouble starting up opensim /dotnet6 just need to update
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| [12:18 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: k
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| [12:18 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thanks for pushing those into repo
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| [12:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well thx for providign them :)
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| [12:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: stupid Apple :/
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| [12:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yvw :) glad it happened after I was back from travel
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| [12:22 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if I do codesign -v -v on your old libs
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| [12:23 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it sayus:
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| [12:23 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: libBulletSim.dylib: valid on disk
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| [12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: those that where testing fs 7.0 alpha and did update, somethings no longer work due to ll change on protocol
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| [12:23 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: libBulletSim.dylib: satisfies its Designated Requirement
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| [12:23 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: try codesign -d --verbose=2 --extract-certificates [file]
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| [12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: changes on inveotry procotol seems working on that and main beta
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| [12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just it shows now inventory thumnails and those do not work
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| [12:24 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: [REDACTED]
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| [12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: since they only use code dependent on AISv3
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| [12:24 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did I dox you now?
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| [12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel thats a thing abotu soft sign.. no anonimate
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| [12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well unless apple allows it?
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| [12:26 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they don't
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| [12:26 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: LL rushing things out more than usual working on different things at the same time causing everything to break huh
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| [12:26 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Just edit the above out from the minutes, pls
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| [12:27 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, their development process is a complete mess as seen from outside
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| [12:27 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: Ohh vicent canm you edit out that name, later, before uploading the log?
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| [12:27 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Will do
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| [12:27 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: gavin is that from ther old libs? I get a different result, weird
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| [12:27 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: thanks
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| [12:27 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes it is
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| [12:28 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well it's nice to see, but not clear why we are gettign diff results. Will look into this later
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| [12:28 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
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| [12:30 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Yes, LL is pushing out more stuff. But there was a 3-year period during which they did very little. This is progress
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| [12:30 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually they did a heck of a lot in the background Joe
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| [12:30 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: brb
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| [12:30 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well would be progress if it where good things.. but details ;)
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| [12:30 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as they seem to do agaon
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| [12:31 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Right, they had to clean up a lot to get onto AWS. Old versions of libraries...
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| [12:31 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm they are at aws for years now
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| [12:31 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd wish they'd think a bit more about how things get implemented so the new functions in LSL would make a bit more sense
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| [12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: thing is that they had moved to sansar..
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| [12:32 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have said it before, I am pretty sure they are developing an xbox version of the viewer
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| [12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and did very little on sl
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| [12:33 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they may also drop Mac support, because they have updated the build instructions for the Windows version, but the Mac version instructions are significantly outdated
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| [12:33 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah those game control changes are annoying too, as if xbox was the only controller out there, would have liked some more modularity on that
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| [12:34 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and yet they are working on an iPad viewer
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| [12:34 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: kewl
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| [12:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: those on top of the mobile viewer?
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| [12:34 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Game controller support will use the Human Interface Device standard. That supports most things that plug into a USB port.
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| [12:34 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: more serious is their chief tech (cannot remember his name) said i one of their podcasts / videos that "Mac users will lag behind Windows users in functionality and performance, but we will try to have an option also for these users"
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| [12:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: or those are realy the mobile project?
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| [12:34 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: no idea, its a hush-hush Linden project
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| [12:34 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: bhut they do post their progress from time to time
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| [12:35 PM PT] Joe Magarac: It's apparently written in C# but that's all I know.
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| [12:35 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: LL posted an update about it in October
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| [12:35 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The mobile project is running on Vulkan
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| [12:35 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mobile viewer gonna work real well with lludp and spotty connections unless they want to move all into tcp now, yay protocol overhead isn't something we already have enough of
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| [12:35 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: c# on xbox? ll is really good on using the wrong tools for a job ;)
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| [12:36 PM PT] Joe Magarac: I'm wondering if the mobile viewer has some extra server support.
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| [12:36 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I suspect they are not doing any UDP
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| [12:36 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but thats just a guess
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| [12:36 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Don't know.
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| [12:36 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a crippled version of Vulcan called MoltenVK, that translates it to Metal, but it is a subset only
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| [12:36 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and Apple has made major updates to Metal lately
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| [12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: old idea for mobile was kinda server side video streaming of a client
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| [12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: soemthing done for several games... that even can be played on tvs
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| [12:37 PM PT] Joe Magarac: There is a plan to migrate some more things to the event poller channel. But after the Materials debacle, that isn't looking as good. Too much LLSD overhead.
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| [12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: bahh materials problem was not llsd overhaed
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| [12:38 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: was/is LSL nonsense
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| [12:38 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I will not be surprised they are writing a DirectX 12 renderer, and dropping Mac support
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| [12:38 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: plus JSON embeded on llsdxml
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| [12:38 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Sure it was. Someone made a disco floor where every tile changed material on every beat. 50 MB/minute of LLSD over the event poller channel.
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| [12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: gltf sees a fun thign to help sells... but a very bad format to use on fast streaming
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| [12:39 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Agreed.
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| [12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: seems..
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| [12:39 PM PT] Joe Magarac: So t hey changed to some UDP mesages for material overrides.
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| [12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wo yea at least they changed that...
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| [12:40 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: sadly adding extra work on servers.. bc tehy still upload data in gltf and send to viewers in compact LLSD notation
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| [12:40 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess theirs servers have to do that transcode on the fly per prim face... so clever...
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| [12:40 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This is going to strain viewer development in regards to compatibility and make every code merge even more annoying
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| [12:40 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Does anyone know what the Sansar renderer was written in (it did not have Mac support)
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| [12:41 PM PT] Joe Magarac: No idea how Sansar did things.
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| [12:41 PM PT] Joe Magarac: I use WGPU, which is supposed to supprot Mac, but I havent' tested it.
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| [12:41 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: looking to new ll code.. seems sansar did things badly :P
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| [12:41 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: silly question time ~~ are we this dependant on LL?
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| [12:41 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.
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| [12:41 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I suppose one could find out if there is an old client installer somewhere
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| [12:41 PM PT] Joe Magarac: If a Mac dev would like to try, talk to me.
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| [12:41 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes we are
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| [12:42 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OpenSim viewers are 95% LL code
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| [12:42 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: is that healthy?
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| [12:42 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel the dependence rope may be abotu to break( again )
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| [12:42 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: It has never been "healthy"
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| [12:42 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Right.
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| [12:42 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002 listens
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| [12:42 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: some ll changes are jsut too bad to follow
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| [12:42 PM PT] Joe Magarac: I am behind on keeping Sharpview up with LL. Sharpview is 0% LL code. 100% Rust.
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| [12:43 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: We are dependent on the viewer writers, and they are the ones that don't want to separate us
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| [12:43 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: understood
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| [12:43 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: includes dayturm?
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| [12:43 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am hoping Joe here will give us a code base that allows the separation
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| [12:43 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well when fs did sperated us, they stopped doing any code for us..
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| [12:43 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the problem is that nobody are capable of rewriting the renderer
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| [12:43 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes also dayturn
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| [12:44 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: dayturn already does not ahve some ll blablacode :)
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| [12:44 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Whenevery someone wants the code, I point them at an open source test of the rendering stack that I have, and ask them to compile and build it. So far, nobody has.
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| [12:44 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on macOS Apple has said they will park OpenGL and the only thing running on macOS is Metal
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| [12:44 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: once OpenGL is toast
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| [12:45 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: seem thing thing vulkan will run on mac??
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| [12:45 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ...think...
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| [12:45 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it wont
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| [12:45 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a subset
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| [12:45 PM PT] Joe Magarac: If you want to try, build this: https://github.com/John-Nagle/ui-mock
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| [12:45 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and Apple has done major changes in Metal 3 to make support for the VR headset
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| [12:45 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that Vulkan cannot do
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| [12:46 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's multiple things combined that make it so bad. The practice of merging mainline code then reverting and changing things back to add compatibility or fix LL code. Then you have a large dependency tree and quite complex setup to build the viewer making development slow as you wait for it to build. So it's a dev and devops issue and you still have to watch out for LL curve balls
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| [12:46 PM PT] Joe Magarac: It's a dummy game - same stack as Sharpview.
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| [12:46 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: "100% safe Rust." hmm :)
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| [12:46 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: correct Vincent
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| [12:46 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Works on windows and Linux. Try building it on MacOS and let me know how that works.
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| [12:46 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a real pain
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| [12:46 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i don't think my car rust is 100% safe ..
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| [12:47 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bookmarked your repo
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| [12:47 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Try that out, please. If there are problems I will help. But I don't have any Mac gear.
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| [12:48 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess rust like c# will not need sign on mac?
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| [12:48 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel assuming c# will not need it..
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| [12:48 PM PT] Joe Magarac: It produces hard executables, so it will probably need signing.
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| [12:49 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah was thinking that on AOT compile
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| [12:49 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even if it is running Rust, in will have to be compiled in Xcode for the final app to run as a desktop app, so ideally it must be singed and notraized
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| [12:49 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel in fact apple only allows AOT
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| [12:50 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Changing the development pipeline and cleaning up the dependency mess would not just benefit us, but make it generally easier to develop a viewer using LL code. That's a big undertaking though and it doesn't completely solve the compatibility problem either
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| [12:50 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: dotnet c# like opensium must not be singed | | [12:50 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: dotnet c# like opensium must not be singed |
| [12:50 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: signed | | [12:50 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: signed |