Réunion du 07-06-2022

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Révision datée du 8 juin 2022 à 17:29 par Acryline (discussion | contributions) (Page créée avec « Source : http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Chat_log_from_the_meeting_on_2022-06-07 [11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:01] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andrew [11:01] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Hi Andrew [11:02] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everyone [11:02] Arielle Popstar: Hi Ubit [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice to see a few more people here today than we had last time. [11:02] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utop... »)
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Source : http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Chat_log_from_the_meeting_on_2022-06-07

[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:01] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andrew [11:01] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Hi Andrew [11:02] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everyone [11:02] Arielle Popstar: Hi Ubit [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice to see a few more people here today than we had last time. [11:02] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Hi UBit [11:02] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Todays edition of "What's new in OpenSim" will be rather short. [11:03] Ubit Umarov: if you mean ..new in code.. yes [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: One cosmetic change and one minor bug fix. [11:03] Ubit Umarov: just a smll fix of typos [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:04] Ubit Umarov: don't worry ill break it all soon [11:04] Ubit Umarov: :p [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder how long the typo re: mantis 8907 had been around. [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:05] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A comprehensive code review would unearth a few more most likely, but that's quite the task [11:05] Ubit Umarov: yeah it has all footprints of my kinda typos [11:05] Ubit Umarov: tipical c&p then forgetting to change things :p [11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yep [11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: There was a plugin for visual studio that popped up a hint when you pasted code to make sure to change it [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, it would indeed take a long time. It would be a good way for someone new to the code base to contribute to the development without needing to know any of the deep details of the code base. [11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I think that is what some do hence the tickets once in a while [11:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Picking an area of interest and reading the code there [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Right [11:07] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: There are some good code quality scanners that will flag that sort of thing. Let the computer do the hard work :) [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there a lint tool for C#? [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks checks... [11:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: visual studio will too, but it will flag 27 thousand things [11:08] Ubit Umarov: ohh osfeast event abotu to start in a few days? [11:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes [11:09] Ubit Umarov: OSFest Opening Date: July 8, 2022 [11:09] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods [11:09] Ubit Umarov: https://www.opensimfest.com/ [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I see there are several tools available. [11:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Metaverse fest: 7/8-25, 2022 OpenSim Fest 2022: #OSFest2022 People, events, exhibits, art, merchandise. You don't have to wait for the metaverse-- it is here. Lots of metaverse people at #OSFest 2022. Nobody is in the future metaverse. Come to the now metaverse [11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I actually have a patch to fix up some suppressed warnings and small code quality updates, but such things never really have that great of an impact and depending on what it is looking through the paths to make sure that doesn't lead to regression takes a long time [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. I was wondering about the "feast" reference. :) [11:10] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: CodeQL is a good one Andrew. Also scans for vulnerabilities. [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, no use to me unless the tool runs under Linux. [11:10] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: And its built in to github actions [11:10] Ubit Umarov: Bill used to organize it [11:10] Ubit Umarov: then passed to Mike here?? [11:10] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: It does [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ok [11:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: https://www.opensimfest.com/ [11:11] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well yes I was going to do it but have just too much workload. So I asked Shellen/IMA to pick it up [11:11] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: They've done a great job with it IMO [11:11] Ubit Umarov: and Mike that to pass to Shelenn, yes [11:11] Ubit Umarov: Oh i was 2 slow typing that :) [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: There is something else called Microsoft Code Analysis that is available through the Visual Studio Marketplace (or was). [11:12] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: lol [11:12] Ubit Umarov: "mike that" was to be " mike had" .. details ;) [11:13] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: There seems to be alot of excitement and energy around it. Good to see [11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Removing all the pragma ignore and hitting compile leads to fun, could start there, but some of these you can't resolve without changing entire structs [11:13] Ubit Umarov: some pragma are needed :p [11:14] Ubit Umarov: there is pragma for a reason hm or reasons :) [11:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yeah on the events for example [11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Can't remove that on the null stuff or it blows up [11:15] Ubit Umarov: like a controled, intencional and local supression of a warning, we want elsewhere [11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I managed to clear a few out, but not all, some will have to stay [11:15] Ubit Umarov: yeha should put a pragma about our use of "events" [11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Few old leftover log headers [11:16] Ubit Umarov: ms wants them to have a exact format profile, even considerinf they can have any other [11:16] Ubit Umarov: ms seems to consider them just a UI thing [11:17] Ubit Umarov: that alone accounts for like 3000 warnings on opensim code analysis [11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I think it was the null data connector or something that didn't use those events, but cannot remove them or it fails to compile cause the struct forces them to exist on derivatives [11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Or something like that [11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I just left that can of worms alone [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: A wise decision [11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Picking battles not wars [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Arielle. I didn't see you arrive. [11:19] Ubit Umarov: 1984 dune worms where nicer [11:19] Ubit Umarov: well lets see on part II of the new oen [11:19] Ubit Umarov: think some on lani regions here [11:19] Ubit Umarov: seen them? [11:20] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I can't normally attend these because of the time though I do try and read the notes. But I had a question and cleared my afternoon so I could come today. Happy to wait to ask until its appropriate. [11:20] Ubit Umarov: region, lani ixi. etc [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, You are welcome any time. What is your question? [11:22] Ubit Umarov: ( it is my lag or it will be a long question? ) [11:22] Ubit Umarov: ;) [11:23] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well I've been doing work on tightening up handling of IP rights. Mostly looking at object ingress and egress. So things like the export flag being used when writing oars or iars and on oar loading not just assigning things to the region owner + using an alias table for mapping external ids to grid local ones. The question is whats the position of core on code to protect IP? Would you take changes like that? [11:23] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: hehe sort of long. [11:24] Arielle Popstar: there is a can of worms [11:25] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I suspected so though I'm not sure why it should be. IP rights are a real thing. [11:25] Ubit Umarov: hard to tell withou seeing actual code [11:25] Arielle Popstar: they have the dmca process [11:25] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods. I can submit things certainly. [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: It sounds like it would be useful but might need some discussion (via the osdev mailing list?) to work out some of the details to ensure it is headed in the right direction. [11:26] Ubit Umarov: major thing about IP code, is that it us mostly waste of time on opensource [11:26] Ubit Umarov: unless going down the certificates blabla lane [11:26] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Arielle, DMCA is a US thing. Although the EU has chapter 17 laws and so on. [11:26] Ubit Umarov: then getting a proformance hit, that makes it useless [11:27] Ubit Umarov: and performance... [11:27] Ubit Umarov: ie things like blockchains.. etc [11:28] Arielle Popstar: if one puts code to protrct content and it is hacked anyway, does Opensim bear responsibility at that point? [11:28] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The two implementations that were shared in the past to protect things only worked on a basic level and were easy to work around from the user perspective [11:28] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I guess I dont share the opensource opinion. To me the system should respect intellectual property rights of individuals and do the right thing. Sure you can hack around it, you have the source. But the defaults shouldn't make it easy to subvert IP. In fact you could argue having it that way introduces a liability [11:28] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: More likely OpenSim could be held responsible for doing nothing about it. [11:29] Ubit Umarov: we do try to protect .. like the permissions system [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Preserving ownership info in IAR and OAR files gets tricky. You would have to include the name of the grid used to create the IAR/OAR to have some sort of link to the original creator. [11:29] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The project itself? No probably not, are car manufacturers liable for people speeding? [11:29] Arielle Popstar: opensim has always been a platform wwhere others can then put in code to protect the content [11:30] Arielle Popstar: otherwise Opensim would potentially be liable [11:30] Ubit Umarov: iars have a confusing mess on creator data [11:30] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: True but then there is the maintenance side of that. Taking patches from core becomes more difficult as things digress [11:30] Ubit Umarov: don't understand what older devs did on that [11:31] Ubit Umarov: well some did had the idea of a Brave Free World... [11:31] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well I get that there are some hard issues here. I'm really trying to understand wether the project would support solving them if code was available. [11:31] Ubit Umarov: think i kinda answer.. depends on that code :) [11:31] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: And I'd appreciate an honest answer. If its really just no due to philosophy then I can assume its on me to do it for my grids and users [11:32] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: If you are talking about IAR and OAR handling permissions a bit more then that alone is probably useful, doesn't stop anyone from just breaking permissions anyways [11:32] Arielle Popstar: does S/L have code over and above Opensim to protect content? [11:32] Ubit Umarov: we don't refuse code, but neither do blind accept.. [11:32] Ubit Umarov: so honest answer is.. depends on the code.. [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, I would like to say yes, but I think that it is a topic that should be discussed a bit on a mailing list before you go too deep in to code creation. [11:32] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Thats an interesring question. They do some things in certain ways to protect content yes. [11:33] Ubit Umarov: SL Is a closed system [11:33] Ubit Umarov: not part of the talk abotu OARs.. [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: SL doesn't offer saving of IAR/OAR files (an LL equivalent), afaik. [11:33] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Andrew thats fair. I'm already creating the code. But yes we can discuss how it related to OpenSim [11:33] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Say "this ignores permissions, here I fixed it" that is likely going to at least be looked at [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes [11:34] Arielle Popstar: it does obviously have a backup system which is anagolous to iar and oars [11:34] Ubit Umarov: SL is closed.. assets get out because of abuse [11:34] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods ok. sounds good. [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, yes but only L has access to them [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: s/L/LL/ [11:34] Ubit Umarov: while at opensim sharing what should be shared is a feature [11:34] Arielle Popstar: like the grid admins here do [11:34] Ubit Umarov: IAR/OAR HG assets sharing [11:34] Arielle Popstar: a grid admin in opensim is like a Linden [11:35] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well sharing is a feature so long as a creators rights are respected [11:35] Ubit Umarov: so very diferent copyright issues [11:35] Ubit Umarov: that in fact SL does not have. or only has internaly [11:35] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A better approach is to be active about cases when they pop up and check on grids that connect to see who you are dealing with. I have started to adopt a policy of removing access when a grid does not publish ownership information anywhere, because the first step in getting a copyright issue resolved is talking to the involved parties. If that's not possible you have little recourse left. [11:36] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Botting and sharing ripped content is so rampant in OpenSim. You could argue the barn door is already open. But I want to build a system that helps secure things where a creators rights are involved and respects that. [11:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: We are all real people and our rights don't stop at the screen, which is something some seem to think the metaverse is a free for all [11:36] Arielle Popstar: Opensim creators? [11:37] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: And yes sure its opensource. I can hack it. I cant fix that. but IMO best efforts are still a good thing [11:37] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well any creators honestly. But yes OpenSim creators especially [11:37] Ubit Umarov: so far only closed comercial grids can have some sucess protecting some content.. [11:37] Arielle Popstar: well thats where it gets dicey [11:37] Ubit Umarov: at least to the level SL does [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, a number of things have been a "free for all" until someone comes along and decides they shouldn't be. [11:37] Arielle Popstar: s/l does not protect any creators but its own [11:38] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Why is it dicey. If something is clearly ripped from SL why should we pretend we dont have an obligation to protect that creators rights [11:38] Arielle Popstar: because you have no idea how it got here unless the original creator files a dmca [11:39] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Oh I have a pretty good idea how it got there. [11:39] Arielle Popstar: did they release it themselves? Did they allow another to unofficially? Did some create their own version lookalike? [11:39] Ubit Umarov: not in legal terms :) [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: You have to wonder if something was copied from the original author or copied from someone who copied it from the original author. [11:39] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: It takes a pretty large suspension of reality to simply ignore it [11:39] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Get Kayaker comments on IP rights [11:40] Arielle Popstar: I have content from s/l that the creator said unnofficially i could bring over [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: What a day for Kayaker to be absent. [11:40] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well sure. I have licensed content I bought from SL with permissions to use it [11:41] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Thats not what I'm referencing. [11:41] Arielle Popstar: no but it gets involved when we start getting witch hunts [11:41] Ubit Umarov: well some minimal content protection is, and possible always will be a opensim issue [11:41] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Anyway I didnt intend to start a debate on this. I can start by submitting code and go from there [11:41] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: There is also the matter of ownership and rights you purchase on items. If you buy something to own in without any license that says otherwise then you can do whatever you want with your purchase [11:42] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: So it's always a question of origin and determining that sometimes is... well impossible [11:42] Ubit Umarov: as i said, IARs seem to fail to even store a proper UUID of a creator [11:42] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I just plan on being more aggressive with IP protection in my NGC project. And a number of the grid owners there respect that approach [11:42] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods @Ubit. Yes thats a problem [11:42] Ubit Umarov: ofc something that some opensim dev decided to had the option to strip out on loading [11:43] Ubit Umarov: as i said, some opensim devs seem to has been active about opensim freebylandia [11:43] Ubit Umarov: and some og that still around.. [11:44] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: yes. amd in our case we're looking more closely at the inputs and outputs and trying to be sure things are handled correctly [11:44] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I have seen some implementations of blocking content upload and such, but they all fail to actually do their job given how easy it is to trick them into no longer recognizing such content. That's an uphill battle that given the complexity of data is near impossible to win and of course performance suffers massively on that [11:44] Ubit Umarov: our per object "export" flag, is broken viewers side [11:44] Ubit Umarov: each viewer handles it own way.. making it useless [11:44] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Right, thats something I'd like to fix [11:44] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Let the simulator define what it means [11:45] Ubit Umarov: but then its spec was to be applied only of FULL rights objects [11:45] Ubit Umarov: so.. well... limited use [11:45] Ubit Umarov: i did ask a viewer dev to remove viewer side checks to let region to force own rules [11:45] Ubit Umarov: she/he refused :p [11:46] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: lol. Well again for cases where the simulator is handling the export we can define what it means. [11:46] Ubit Umarov: think i sent a email to dev mail list abotu that sometime ago [11:46] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: As someone that creates and sells content I also expect things to get shared beyond what I would like, hence I quite like the idea of teaching grid owners that setting up a public platform like this makes them partially liable for what goes on to the extend of laws that govern such theft. It's easier to get such cases resolved and the involved people shunned out of the metaverse if people work together rather than rely on software to do it all for them [11:46] Ubit Umarov: thin is that viewers do look to the flag [11:47] Ubit Umarov: and enforce their own things [11:47] Arielle Popstar: there is also an aspect where opensim devs define copy/mod/transfer differently then it is defined by S/L [11:47] Ubit Umarov: well in fact i just do not understand what they try to do now :) [11:47] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Oh? [11:48] Ubit Umarov: don0 tthink there are many diferences on that now [11:48] Ubit Umarov: guess a few cases.. not many [11:48] Arielle Popstar: i dont remember the particulars but Ubit is on record somewhere where his interpretation of modify is stricter than in S/L [11:48] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Vincent yes, educating grid owners is also important. My problem is right now its a free for all. And no one cares about object provenance. They just share everything regardless [11:48] Ubit Umarov: possible... don't remember now :) [11:48] Arielle Popstar: :) [11:49] Arielle Popstar: thats not entirely correct Mike [11:49] Ubit Umarov: fun reading about copyrights looking to tv waticng russia troops getting inside homes taking what they want [11:49] Ubit Umarov: well sorry... rl is .. well .. rl [11:49] Arielle Popstar: quite a few grid owners do protect content to the legal limit allowed by the dmca process [11:50] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Yes and thats a tragedy [11:50] Ubit Umarov: back to the original and simpler question... code will be accept or refused on case by case :) [11:51] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Best file a mantis so Ubit doesn't forget hehe [11:51] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I'm glad to hear that Arielle. I know my grid does as do others in NGC. I also know the other extreme exists. Where grids have paid a license for "all the desireable content on xxx" [11:51] Ubit Umarov: ofc that is a more complex case... [11:51] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: TY UBit. Happy to work that way [11:51] Ubit Umarov: or can be,,

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: some IP solutions may i

[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andrew
[11:01] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everyone
[11:02] Arielle Popstar: Hi Ubit
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice to see a few more people here today than we had last time.
[11:02] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Hi UBit
[11:02] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Todays edition of "What's new in OpenSim" will be rather short.
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: if you mean ..new in code.. yes
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: One cosmetic change and one minor bug fix.
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: just a smll fix of typos
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: don't worry ill break it all soon
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder how long the typo re: mantis 8907 had been around.
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:05] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A comprehensive code review would unearth a few more most likely, but that's quite the task
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: yeah it has all footprints of my kinda typos
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: tipical c&p then forgetting to change things :p
[11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yep
[11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: There was a plugin for visual studio that popped up a hint when you pasted code to make sure to change it
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, it would indeed take a long time. It would be a good way for someone new to the code base to contribute to the development without needing to know any of the deep details of the code base.
[11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I think that is what some do hence the tickets once in a while
[11:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Picking an area of interest and reading the code there
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Right
[11:07] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: There are some good code quality scanners that will flag that sort of thing.  Let the computer do the hard work :)
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there a lint tool for C#?
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks checks...
[11:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: visual studio will too, but it will flag 27 thousand things
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: ohh osfeast event abotu to start in a few days?
[11:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: OSFest Opening Date: July 8, 2022
[11:09] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: https://www.opensimfest.com/
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I see there are several tools available.
[11:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Metaverse fest:  7/8-25, 2022 
OpenSim Fest 2022:  #OSFest2022
People, events, exhibits, art, merchandise.  
You don't have to wait for the metaverse-- it is here.
Lots of metaverse people at  #OSFest  2022.  Nobody is in the future metaverse.  Come to the now metaverse
[11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I actually have a patch to fix up some suppressed warnings and small code quality updates, but such things never really have that great of an impact and depending on what it is looking through the paths to make sure that doesn't lead to regression takes a long time
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. I was wondering about the "feast" reference. :)
[11:10] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: CodeQL is a good one Andrew. Also scans for vulnerabilities.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, no use to me unless the tool runs under Linux.
[11:10] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: And its built in to github actions
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: Bill used to organize it
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: then passed to Mike here??
[11:10] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: It does
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[11:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: https://www.opensimfest.com/
[11:11] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well yes I was going to do it but have just too much workload.  So I asked Shellen/IMA to pick it up
[11:11] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: They've done a great job with it IMO
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: and Mike that to pass to Shelenn, yes
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: Oh i was 2 slow typing that :)
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: There is something else called Microsoft Code Analysis that is available through the Visual Studio Marketplace (or was).
[11:12] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: lol
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: "mike that" was to be " mike had"  .. details ;)
[11:13] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: There seems to be alot of excitement and energy around it. Good to see
[11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Removing all the pragma ignore and hitting compile leads to fun, could start there, but some of these you can't resolve without changing entire structs
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: some pragma are needed :p
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: there is pragma for a reason  hm or reasons :)
[11:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yeah on the events for example
[11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Can't remove that on the null stuff or it blows up
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: like a controled, intencional and local supression of a warning, we want elsewhere
[11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I managed to clear a few out, but not all, some will have to stay
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: yeha should put  a pragma about our use of "events"
[11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Few old leftover log headers
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: ms wants them to have a exact format profile,  even considerinf they can have any other
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: ms seems to consider them just a UI thing
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: that alone accounts for like 3000 warnings on opensim code analysis
[11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I think it was the null data connector or something that didn't use those events, but cannot remove them or it fails to compile cause the struct forces them to exist on derivatives
[11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Or something like that
[11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I just left that can of worms alone
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: A wise decision
[11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Picking battles not wars
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Arielle. I didn't see you arrive.
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: 1984 dune worms where nicer
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: well lets see on part II of the new oen
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: think some on lani regions here
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: seen them?
[11:20] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I can't normally attend these because of the time though I do try and read the notes.   But I had a question and cleared my afternoon so I could come today.  Happy to wait to ask until its appropriate.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: region, lani ixi. etc
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, You are welcome any time. What is your question?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: ( it is my lag or it will be a long question? )
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:23] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well I've been doing work on tightening up handling of IP rights.  Mostly looking at object ingress and egress.  So things like the export flag being used when writing oars or iars and on oar loading not just assigning things to the region owner + using an alias table for mapping external ids to grid local ones.  The question is whats the position of core on code to protect IP?  Would you take changes like that?
[11:23] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: hehe sort of long.
[11:24] Arielle Popstar: there is a can of worms
[11:25] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I suspected so though I'm not sure why it should be.  IP rights are a real thing.
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: hard to tell withou seeing actual code
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: they have the dmca process
[11:25] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods. I can submit things certainly.
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: It sounds like it would be useful but might need some discussion (via the osdev mailing list?) to work out some of the details to ensure it is headed in the right direction.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: major thing about IP code, is that it us mostly waste of time on opensource
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: unless going down the certificates blabla lane
[11:26] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Arielle, DMCA is a US thing. Although the EU has chapter 17 laws and so on.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: then getting a proformance hit, that makes it useless
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: and performance...
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: ie things like blockchains.. etc
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: if one puts code to protrct content and it is hacked anyway, does Opensim bear responsibility at that point?
[11:28] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The two implementations that were shared in the past to protect things only worked on a basic level and were easy to work around from the user perspective
[11:28] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I guess I dont share the opensource opinion.  To me the system should respect intellectual property rights of individuals and do the right thing.  Sure you can hack around it, you have the source.  But the defaults shouldn't make it easy to subvert IP.  In fact you could argue having it that way introduces a liability
[11:28] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: More likely OpenSim could be held responsible for doing nothing about it.
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: we do try to protect .. like the permissions system
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Preserving ownership info in IAR and OAR files gets tricky. You would have to include the name of the grid used to create the IAR/OAR to have some sort of link to the original creator.
[11:29] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The project itself? No probably not, are car manufacturers liable for people speeding?
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: opensim has always been a platform wwhere others  can then put in code to  protect the content
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: otherwise Opensim  would potentially be liable
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: iars have a confusing mess on creator data
[11:30] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: True but then there is the maintenance side of that.  Taking patches from core becomes more difficult as things digress
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: don't understand what older devs did on that
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: well some did had the idea of a Brave Free World...
[11:31] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well I get that there are some hard issues here.  I'm really trying to understand wether the project would support solving them if code was available.
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: think i kinda answer..  depends on that code :)
[11:31] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: And I'd appreciate an honest answer.  If its really just no due to philosophy then I can assume its on me to do it for my grids and users
[11:32] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: If you are talking about IAR and OAR handling permissions a bit more then that alone is probably useful, doesn't stop anyone from just breaking permissions anyways
[11:32] Arielle Popstar: does S/L have code over and above Opensim to protect content?
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: we don't refuse code, but neither do blind accept..
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: so honest answer is.. depends on the code..
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, I would like to say yes, but I think that it is a topic that should be discussed a bit on a mailing list before you go too deep in to code creation.
[11:32] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Thats an interesring question.   They do some things in certain ways to protect content yes.
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: SL Is a closed system
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: not part of the talk abotu OARs..
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: SL doesn't offer saving of IAR/OAR files (an LL equivalent), afaik.
[11:33] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Andrew thats fair.   I'm already creating the code.  But yes we can discuss how it related to OpenSim
[11:33] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Say "this ignores permissions, here I fixed it" that is likely going to at least be looked at
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: it does obviously have a backup system which is anagolous to iar and oars
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: SL is closed..  assets get out because of abuse
[11:34] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods ok. sounds good.
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, yes but only L has access to them
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: s/L/LL/
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: while at opensim sharing what should be shared is a feature
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: like the  grid admins here do
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: IAR/OAR  HG assets sharing
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: a grid admin in opensim is like a Linden
[11:35] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well sharing is a feature so long as a creators rights are respected
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: so very diferent copyright issues
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: that in fact SL does not have. or only has internaly
[11:35] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A better approach is to be active about cases when they pop up and check on grids that connect to see who you are dealing with. I have started to adopt a policy of removing access when a grid does not publish ownership information anywhere, because the first step in getting a copyright issue resolved is talking to the involved parties. If that's not possible you have little recourse left.
[11:36] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Botting and sharing ripped content is so rampant in OpenSim.  You could argue the barn door is already open.  But I want to build a system that helps secure things where a creators rights are involved and respects that.
[11:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: We are all real people and our rights don't stop at the screen, which is something some seem to think the metaverse is a free for all
[11:36] Arielle Popstar: Opensim creators?
[11:37] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: And yes sure its opensource. I can hack it.  I cant fix that.  but IMO best efforts are still a good thing
[11:37] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well any creators honestly.   But yes OpenSim creators especially
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: so far only closed comercial grids can have some sucess protecting some content..
[11:37] Arielle Popstar: well thats where it gets dicey
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: at least to the level SL does
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, a number of things have been a "free for all" until someone comes along and decides they shouldn't be.
[11:37] Arielle Popstar: s/l does not protect any creators but its own
[11:38] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Why is it dicey.  If something is clearly ripped from SL why should we pretend we dont have an obligation to protect that creators rights
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: because  you  have no idea how it got here unless the original creator files a dmca
[11:39] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Oh I have a pretty good idea how it got there.
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: did they release it themselves? Did they allow another to unofficially? Did some create their own version lookalike?
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: not in legal terms :)
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: You have to wonder if something was copied from the original author or copied from someone who copied it from the original author.
[11:39] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: It takes a pretty large suspension of reality to simply ignore it
[11:39] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Get Kayaker comments on IP rights
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: I have content from s/l that the creator said unnofficially  i could bring over
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: What a day for Kayaker to be absent.
[11:40] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well sure. I have licensed content I bought from SL with permissions to use it
[11:41] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Thats not what I'm referencing.
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: no but it gets involved  when we start getting witch hunts
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: well some minimal content protection is, and possible always will be a opensim issue
[11:41] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Anyway I didnt intend to start a debate on this.    I can start by submitting code and go from there
[11:41] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: There is also the matter of ownership and rights you purchase on items. If you buy something to own in without any license that says otherwise then you can do whatever you want with your purchase
[11:42] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: So it's always a question of origin and determining that sometimes is... well impossible
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: as i said,  IARs seem to fail to even store a proper UUID of a creator
[11:42] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I just plan on being more aggressive with IP protection in my NGC project.  And a number of the grid owners there respect that approach
[11:42] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods @Ubit. Yes thats a problem
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: ofc something that some opensim dev decided to had the option to strip out on loading
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: as i said, some opensim devs seem to has been active about opensim freebylandia
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: and some og that still around..
[11:44] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: yes.  amd in our case we're looking more closely at the inputs and outputs and trying to be sure things are handled correctly
[11:44] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I have seen some implementations of blocking content upload and such, but they all fail to actually do their job given how easy it is to trick them into no longer recognizing such content. That's an uphill battle that given the complexity of data is near impossible to win and of course performance suffers massively on that
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: our per object "export" flag, is broken viewers side
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: each viewer handles it own way.. making it useless
[11:44] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Right, thats something I'd like to fix
[11:44] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Let the simulator define what it means
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: but then its spec was to be applied only of FULL rights objects
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: so.. well... limited use
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: i did ask a viewer dev to remove viewer side checks to let region to force own rules
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: she/he refused :p
[11:46] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: lol.  Well again for cases where the simulator is handling the export we can define what it means.
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: think i sent a email to dev mail list abotu that sometime ago
[11:46] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: As someone that creates and sells content I also expect things to get shared beyond what I would like, hence I quite like the idea of teaching grid owners that setting up a public platform like this makes them partially liable for what goes on to the extend of laws that govern such theft. It's easier to get such cases resolved and the involved people shunned out of the metaverse if people work together rather than rely on software to do it all for them
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: thin is that viewers do look to the flag
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: and enforce their own things
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: there is also an aspect where opensim devs define copy/mod/transfer differently then it is defined by S/L
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: well in fact i just do not understand what they try to do now :)
[11:47] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Oh?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: don0 tthink there are many diferences on that now
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: guess a few cases.. not many
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: i dont remember the particulars  but Ubit is on record somewhere where his interpretation of modify is stricter than in S/L
[11:48] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Vincent yes, educating grid owners is also important.  My problem is right now its a free for all. And no one cares about object provenance. They just share everything regardless
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: possible...  don't remember now :)
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: :)
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: thats not entirely correct Mike
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: fun reading about copyrights looking to tv waticng russia troops getting inside homes taking what they want
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: well sorry...  rl is .. well .. rl
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: quite a few grid owners do protect content to the legal limit allowed by the dmca  process
[11:50] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Yes and thats a tragedy
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: back to the original and simpler question...  code will be accept or refused on case by case :)
[11:51] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Best file a mantis so Ubit doesn't forget hehe
[11:51] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I'm glad to hear that Arielle. I know my grid does as do others in NGC.  I also know the other extreme exists.  Where grids have paid a license for "all the desireable content on xxx"
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: ofc that is a more complex case...
[11:51] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: TY UBit.  Happy to work that way
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: or can be,,
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: some IP solutions may imply a more structural definition of entire opensim...
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: depends
[11:52] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Right. And so long as there is a way to have that discussion I'm sure we can work stuff out
[11:52] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Creating a trusted metaverse so to speak, of grids that resolve such problems among themselves and effectively shun bad actors out is a bit easier to achieve than trying to write software on the server end to protect things, especially in the open HG environment
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: don't think that will ever happen
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: being that opensim can be run by anyone, it only takes a few  to spoil it for others  but I will point out the ffocus should really be on content from Opensim creators. Trying to protect it all is a big chunk to chew
[11:53] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: A trusted hypergrid is precisely on my/our radar
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, for the record what is NGC?
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: ppl keep wating pirate movies and listening to pirate music
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: and those spend rivers of gold on content protection...
[11:54] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Next Generation Core.  it's an attempt to upgrade tech and build a curated OpenSim that addresses issues like this.
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: and all defenders of new things, should just read even watch a movie about Enigma
[11:54] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I can share a URL to the project if you like
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, ty
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: of names like.. "Next Generation Core".. well whatever
[11:55] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: NGC was a play off of Star Trek
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, Please do. Other may read the log of the meeting and want more information.
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:55] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I mean if a user comes in from a grid called copykat, what exactly should I expect... creating a full trust ring in the metaverse is hard, but being a bit proactive about what comes in and identifying the likely sources of trouble is not that complex.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: Next generations is just star trek thing.. period :p
[11:55] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: https://github.com/OpenSim-NGC
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, thanks for the link.
[11:55] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: In the same way Sasquatch is a play off of Yeti
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: nahh spin off of generation is Picard
[11:56] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I track core pretty closely
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: well and a few more
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: that was very easy last week :)
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: how much demand do you think there wouldd be for Opensim if we go back to pre mesh days?
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: who would want pre mesh ??
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: you :)
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: ahh avatars... and a few other things
[11:58] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: yeah I'm not sure why we would.  I'm sort of excited about things moving forward.  The GLTF and PBR stuff the labs is doing is interesting.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: seems new viewers will have totally diferent meshes soon
[11:58] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: nods
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: oh?
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: yeah GLTF they had to pick bad protocols as always
[11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: All mesh bodies I have tried just kinda looked dull and didn't really react to the shape sliders which is a bit sad, granted I only sampled what we have in OpenSim
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: has that to do with vulkan?
[11:59] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well you can watermark a GLTF stream.  Which gets to IP protection again.
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: well i see no tpv with code on that... so that still does not exist for me
[11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Ruth and Roth projects kinda died on that hill too sadly
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: no ariellle
[12:00] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Vulkan is a different rendering tech. More low level
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: they are just changign mesh formats
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: and materials
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: for SL
[12:00] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Right
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: I think it is a bit limiting when you can't change the size of a mesh. It would be nice to see that restriction lifted.
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: openGL/vulcan is other talk.. a lower level one
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: err lower in tech ladder :)
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: will it not break existing content?
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:01] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: But Mike if you are fiddling with perms might you be inclined to share the permission flags and such things, that documentation is missing from the wiki as of yet, would be nice to have that to know what flag is what :)
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: guess viewers will work with both
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: only taking new on the new formats
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: but that is SL..
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: nothing for opensim still
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Did anyone else have a question for today before we run out of time?
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: and opensim may never go that path
[12:02] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: TY for putting up with me today.  I wish I could come to these more often.  It's in the middle of my work day
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: as i said, no code on viewers for opensim to see
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, shift your lunch break. ;)
[12:02] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: hehe
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: so just rumors about what is happening at SL.. :)
[12:03] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Yes nothing to see yet so its just talk
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: yes and anything s/l implements will be years anyway
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: seems they do have code.. closed source one
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: a lot some tell
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, If you aren't able to attend very often do make use of the IRC channel and the mailing list to continue discussion about the topic.
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: might they close source the viewer?
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: the voice part is closed source
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: like havoc physics
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: so they may add more closed parts
[12:04] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: even considering that does violate GPL
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: the can work around it
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: that would resolve the botted content issue
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: they
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: at least for new stuff
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: nahh that only depends on the will of the pirates
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: a old thing..  you oyu can see it, you can steal it
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Not like SL doesn't take content from OpenSim illegally and they make it a lot harder to get such issues resolved than some grids I talked to in the past
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: in case of movies that was even literally ppl went to movies with cameras
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: then sould the copies
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: In case we run long again today I will need to head out around the bottom of the hour as I may be involved in a product demo being given by someone I'm helping.
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: thats what i was saying about s/l only protecting its own creators
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: think it is more abotu protecting them selfs
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: since they do own all content at sl
[12:07] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Yeah I need to duck out as well. Again TY for the great discussion and for taking my question. I'll plan on sharing some code in the future and we'll see where it goes
[12:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Straight up told that person that OpenSim doesn't produce content so nothing could be stolen from there
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Mike. Thanks for dropping by. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.
[12:08] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Have a freat day everyone!
[12:08] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: great even
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: You too.
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: oh htere is content creation at opensim!!
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: Tc Mike
[12:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I had to write a pretty long email to explain a few things and vouch for stuff
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Keep in mind the two times of the year when the clocks change. Perhaps that will make it easier for you to drop in.
[12:08] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: nods. I'll try and see if I can come more often
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: i like more the 2 times a day a old broke watch is right
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: deep philosophic thing
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: ^^<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andrew
[11:01] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everyone
[11:02] Arielle Popstar: Hi Ubit
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice to see a few more people here today than we had last time.
[11:02] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Hi UBit
[11:02] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Todays edition of "What's new in OpenSim" will be rather short.
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: if you mean ..new in code.. yes
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: One cosmetic change and one minor bug fix.
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: just a smll fix of typos
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: don't worry ill break it all soon
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder how long the typo re: mantis 8907 had been around.
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:05] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A comprehensive code review would unearth a few more most likely, but that's quite the task
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: yeah it has all footprints of my kinda typos
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: tipical c&p then forgetting to change things :p
[11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yep
[11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: There was a plugin for visual studio that popped up a hint when you pasted code to make sure to change it
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, it would indeed take a long time. It would be a good way for someone new to the code base to contribute to the development without needing to know any of the deep details of the code base.
[11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I think that is what some do hence the tickets once in a while
[11:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Picking an area of interest and reading the code there
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Right
[11:07] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: There are some good code quality scanners that will flag that sort of thing.  Let the computer do the hard work :)
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there a lint tool for C#?
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks checks...
[11:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: visual studio will too, but it will flag 27 thousand things
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: ohh osfeast event abotu to start in a few days?
[11:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: OSFest Opening Date: July 8, 2022
[11:09] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: https://www.opensimfest.com/
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I see there are several tools available.
[11:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Metaverse fest:  7/8-25, 2022 
OpenSim Fest 2022:  #OSFest2022
People, events, exhibits, art, merchandise.  
You don't have to wait for the metaverse-- it is here.
Lots of metaverse people at  #OSFest  2022.  Nobody is in the future metaverse.  Come to the now metaverse
[11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I actually have a patch to fix up some suppressed warnings and small code quality updates, but such things never really have that great of an impact and depending on what it is looking through the paths to make sure that doesn't lead to regression takes a long time
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. I was wondering about the "feast" reference. :)
[11:10] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: CodeQL is a good one Andrew. Also scans for vulnerabilities.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, no use to me unless the tool runs under Linux.
[11:10] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: And its built in to github actions
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: Bill used to organize it
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: then passed to Mike here??
[11:10] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: It does
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[11:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: https://www.opensimfest.com/
[11:11] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well yes I was going to do it but have just too much workload.  So I asked Shellen/IMA to pick it up
[11:11] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: They've done a great job with it IMO
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: and Mike that to pass to Shelenn, yes
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: Oh i was 2 slow typing that :)
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: There is something else called Microsoft Code Analysis that is available through the Visual Studio Marketplace (or was).
[11:12] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: lol
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: "mike that" was to be " mike had"  .. details ;)
[11:13] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: There seems to be alot of excitement and energy around it. Good to see
[11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Removing all the pragma ignore and hitting compile leads to fun, could start there, but some of these you can't resolve without changing entire structs
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: some pragma are needed :p
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: there is pragma for a reason  hm or reasons :)
[11:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yeah on the events for example
[11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Can't remove that on the null stuff or it blows up
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: like a controled, intencional and local supression of a warning, we want elsewhere
[11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I managed to clear a few out, but not all, some will have to stay
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: yeha should put  a pragma about our use of "events"
[11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Few old leftover log headers
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: ms wants them to have a exact format profile,  even considerinf they can have any other
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: ms seems to consider them just a UI thing
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: that alone accounts for like 3000 warnings on opensim code analysis
[11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I think it was the null data connector or something that didn't use those events, but cannot remove them or it fails to compile cause the struct forces them to exist on derivatives
[11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Or something like that
[11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I just left that can of worms alone
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: A wise decision
[11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Picking battles not wars
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Arielle. I didn't see you arrive.
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: 1984 dune worms where nicer
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: well lets see on part II of the new oen
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: think some on lani regions here
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: seen them?
[11:20] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I can't normally attend these because of the time though I do try and read the notes.   But I had a question and cleared my afternoon so I could come today.  Happy to wait to ask until its appropriate.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: region, lani ixi. etc
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, You are welcome any time. What is your question?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: ( it is my lag or it will be a long question? )
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:23] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well I've been doing work on tightening up handling of IP rights.  Mostly looking at object ingress and egress.  So things like the export flag being used when writing oars or iars and on oar loading not just assigning things to the region owner + using an alias table for mapping external ids to grid local ones.  The question is whats the position of core on code to protect IP?  Would you take changes like that?
[11:23] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: hehe sort of long.
[11:24] Arielle Popstar: there is a can of worms
[11:25] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I suspected so though I'm not sure why it should be.  IP rights are a real thing.
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: hard to tell withou seeing actual code
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: they have the dmca process
[11:25] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods. I can submit things certainly.
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: It sounds like it would be useful but might need some discussion (via the osdev mailing list?) to work out some of the details to ensure it is headed in the right direction.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: major thing about IP code, is that it us mostly waste of time on opensource
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: unless going down the certificates blabla lane
[11:26] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Arielle, DMCA is a US thing. Although the EU has chapter 17 laws and so on.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: then getting a proformance hit, that makes it useless
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: and performance...
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: ie things like blockchains.. etc
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: if one puts code to protrct content and it is hacked anyway, does Opensim bear responsibility at that point?
[11:28] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The two implementations that were shared in the past to protect things only worked on a basic level and were easy to work around from the user perspective
[11:28] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I guess I dont share the opensource opinion.  To me the system should respect intellectual property rights of individuals and do the right thing.  Sure you can hack around it, you have the source.  But the defaults shouldn't make it easy to subvert IP.  In fact you could argue having it that way introduces a liability
[11:28] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: More likely OpenSim could be held responsible for doing nothing about it.
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: we do try to protect .. like the permissions system
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Preserving ownership info in IAR and OAR files gets tricky. You would have to include the name of the grid used to create the IAR/OAR to have some sort of link to the original creator.
[11:29] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The project itself? No probably not, are car manufacturers liable for people speeding?
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: opensim has always been a platform wwhere others  can then put in code to  protect the content
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: otherwise Opensim  would potentially be liable
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: iars have a confusing mess on creator data
[11:30] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: True but then there is the maintenance side of that.  Taking patches from core becomes more difficult as things digress
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: don't understand what older devs did on that
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: well some did had the idea of a Brave Free World...
[11:31] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well I get that there are some hard issues here.  I'm really trying to understand wether the project would support solving them if code was available.
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: think i kinda answer..  depends on that code :)
[11:31] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: And I'd appreciate an honest answer.  If its really just no due to philosophy then I can assume its on me to do it for my grids and users
[11:32] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: If you are talking about IAR and OAR handling permissions a bit more then that alone is probably useful, doesn't stop anyone from just breaking permissions anyways
[11:32] Arielle Popstar: does S/L have code over and above Opensim to protect content?
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: we don't refuse code, but neither do blind accept..
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: so honest answer is.. depends on the code..
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, I would like to say yes, but I think that it is a topic that should be discussed a bit on a mailing list before you go too deep in to code creation.
[11:32] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Thats an interesring question.   They do some things in certain ways to protect content yes.
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: SL Is a closed system
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: not part of the talk abotu OARs..
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: SL doesn't offer saving of IAR/OAR files (an LL equivalent), afaik.
[11:33] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Andrew thats fair.   I'm already creating the code.  But yes we can discuss how it related to OpenSim
[11:33] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Say "this ignores permissions, here I fixed it" that is likely going to at least be looked at
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: it does obviously have a backup system which is anagolous to iar and oars
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: SL is closed..  assets get out because of abuse
[11:34] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods ok. sounds good.
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, yes but only L has access to them
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: s/L/LL/
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: while at opensim sharing what should be shared is a feature
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: like the  grid admins here do
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: IAR/OAR  HG assets sharing
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: a grid admin in opensim is like a Linden
[11:35] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well sharing is a feature so long as a creators rights are respected
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: so very diferent copyright issues
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: that in fact SL does not have. or only has internaly
[11:35] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A better approach is to be active about cases when they pop up and check on grids that connect to see who you are dealing with. I have started to adopt a policy of removing access when a grid does not publish ownership information anywhere, because the first step in getting a copyright issue resolved is talking to the involved parties. If that's not possible you have little recourse left.
[11:36] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Botting and sharing ripped content is so rampant in OpenSim.  You could argue the barn door is already open.  But I want to build a system that helps secure things where a creators rights are involved and respects that.
[11:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: We are all real people and our rights don't stop at the screen, which is something some seem to think the metaverse is a free for all
[11:36] Arielle Popstar: Opensim creators?
[11:37] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: And yes sure its opensource. I can hack it.  I cant fix that.  but IMO best efforts are still a good thing
[11:37] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well any creators honestly.   But yes OpenSim creators especially
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: so far only closed comercial grids can have some sucess protecting some content..
[11:37] Arielle Popstar: well thats where it gets dicey
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: at least to the level SL does
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, a number of things have been a "free for all" until someone comes along and decides they shouldn't be.
[11:37] Arielle Popstar: s/l does not protect any creators but its own
[11:38] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Why is it dicey.  If something is clearly ripped from SL why should we pretend we dont have an obligation to protect that creators rights
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: because  you  have no idea how it got here unless the original creator files a dmca
[11:39] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Oh I have a pretty good idea how it got there.
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: did they release it themselves? Did they allow another to unofficially? Did some create their own version lookalike?
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: not in legal terms :)
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: You have to wonder if something was copied from the original author or copied from someone who copied it from the original author.
[11:39] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: It takes a pretty large suspension of reality to simply ignore it
[11:39] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Get Kayaker comments on IP rights
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: I have content from s/l that the creator said unnofficially  i could bring over
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: What a day for Kayaker to be absent.
[11:40] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well sure. I have licensed content I bought from SL with permissions to use it
[11:41] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Thats not what I'm referencing.
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: no but it gets involved  when we start getting witch hunts
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: well some minimal content protection is, and possible always will be a opensim issue
[11:41] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Anyway I didnt intend to start a debate on this.    I can start by submitting code and go from there
[11:41] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: There is also the matter of ownership and rights you purchase on items. If you buy something to own in without any license that says otherwise then you can do whatever you want with your purchase
[11:42] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: So it's always a question of origin and determining that sometimes is... well impossible
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: as i said,  IARs seem to fail to even store a proper UUID of a creator
[11:42] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I just plan on being more aggressive with IP protection in my NGC project.  And a number of the grid owners there respect that approach
[11:42] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods @Ubit. Yes thats a problem
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: ofc something that some opensim dev decided to had the option to strip out on loading
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: as i said, some opensim devs seem to has been active about opensim freebylandia
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: and some og that still around..
[11:44] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: yes.  amd in our case we're looking more closely at the inputs and outputs and trying to be sure things are handled correctly
[11:44] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I have seen some implementations of blocking content upload and such, but they all fail to actually do their job given how easy it is to trick them into no longer recognizing such content. That's an uphill battle that given the complexity of data is near impossible to win and of course performance suffers massively on that
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: our per object "export" flag, is broken viewers side
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: each viewer handles it own way.. making it useless
[11:44] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Right, thats something I'd like to fix
[11:44] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Let the simulator define what it means
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: but then its spec was to be applied only of FULL rights objects
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: so.. well... limited use
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: i did ask a viewer dev to remove viewer side checks to let region to force own rules
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: she/he refused :p
[11:46] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: lol.  Well again for cases where the simulator is handling the export we can define what it means.
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: think i sent a email to dev mail list abotu that sometime ago
[11:46] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: As someone that creates and sells content I also expect things to get shared beyond what I would like, hence I quite like the idea of teaching grid owners that setting up a public platform like this makes them partially liable for what goes on to the extend of laws that govern such theft. It's easier to get such cases resolved and the involved people shunned out of the metaverse if people work together rather than rely on software to do it all for them
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: thin is that viewers do look to the flag
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: and enforce their own things
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: there is also an aspect where opensim devs define copy/mod/transfer differently then it is defined by S/L
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: well in fact i just do not understand what they try to do now :)
[11:47] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Oh?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: don0 tthink there are many diferences on that now
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: guess a few cases.. not many
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: i dont remember the particulars  but Ubit is on record somewhere where his interpretation of modify is stricter than in S/L
[11:48] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Vincent yes, educating grid owners is also important.  My problem is right now its a free for all. And no one cares about object provenance. They just share everything regardless
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: possible...  don't remember now :)
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: :)
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: thats not entirely correct Mike
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: fun reading about copyrights looking to tv waticng russia troops getting inside homes taking what they want
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: well sorry...  rl is .. well .. rl
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: quite a few grid owners do protect content to the legal limit allowed by the dmca  process
[11:50] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Yes and thats a tragedy
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: back to the original and simpler question...  code will be accept or refused on case by case :)
[11:51] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Best file a mantis so Ubit doesn't forget hehe
[11:51] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I'm glad to hear that Arielle. I know my grid does as do others in NGC.  I also know the other extreme exists.  Where grids have paid a license for "all the desireable content on xxx"
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: ofc that is a more complex case...
[11:51] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: TY UBit.  Happy to work that way
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: or can be,,
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: some IP solutions may imply a more structural definition of entire opensim...
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: depends
[11:52] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Right. And so long as there is a way to have that discussion I'm sure we can work stuff out
[11:52] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Creating a trusted metaverse so to speak, of grids that resolve such problems among themselves and effectively shun bad actors out is a bit easier to achieve than trying to write software on the server end to protect things, especially in the open HG environment
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: don't think that will ever happen
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: being that opensim can be run by anyone, it only takes a few  to spoil it for others  but I will point out the ffocus should really be on content from Opensim creators. Trying to protect it all is a big chunk to chew
[11:53] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: A trusted hypergrid is precisely on my/our radar
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, for the record what is NGC?
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: ppl keep wating pirate movies and listening to pirate music
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: and those spend rivers of gold on content protection...
[11:54] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Next Generation Core.  it's an attempt to upgrade tech and build a curated OpenSim that addresses issues like this.
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: and all defenders of new things, should just read even watch a movie about Enigma
[11:54] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I can share a URL to the project if you like
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, ty
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: of names like.. "Next Generation Core".. well whatever
[11:55] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: NGC was a play off of Star Trek
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, Please do. Other may read the log of the meeting and want more information.
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:55] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I mean if a user comes in from a grid called copykat, what exactly should I expect... creating a full trust ring in the metaverse is hard, but being a bit proactive about what comes in and identifying the likely sources of trouble is not that complex.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: Next generations is just star trek thing.. period :p
[11:55] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: https://github.com/OpenSim-NGC
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, thanks for the link.
[11:55] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: In the same way Sasquatch is a play off of Yeti
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: nahh spin off of generation is Picard
[11:56] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I track core pretty closely
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: well and a few more
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: that was very easy last week :)
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: how much demand do you think there wouldd be for Opensim if we go back to pre mesh days?
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: who would want pre mesh ??
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: you :)
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: ahh avatars... and a few other things
[11:58] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: yeah I'm not sure why we would.  I'm sort of excited about things moving forward.  The GLTF and PBR stuff the labs is doing is interesting.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: seems new viewers will have totally diferent meshes soon
[11:58] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: nods
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: oh?
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: yeah GLTF they had to pick bad protocols as always
[11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: All mesh bodies I have tried just kinda looked dull and didn't really react to the shape sliders which is a bit sad, granted I only sampled what we have in OpenSim
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: has that to do with vulkan?
[11:59] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well you can watermark a GLTF stream.  Which gets to IP protection again.
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: well i see no tpv with code on that... so that still does not exist for me
[11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Ruth and Roth projects kinda died on that hill too sadly
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: no ariellle
[12:00] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Vulkan is a different rendering tech. More low level
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: they are just changign mesh formats
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: and materials
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: for SL
[12:00] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Right
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: I think it is a bit limiting when you can't change the size of a mesh. It would be nice to see that restriction lifted.
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: openGL/vulcan is other talk.. a lower level one
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: err lower in tech ladder :)
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: will it not break existing content?
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:01] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: But Mike if you are fiddling with perms might you be inclined to share the permission flags and such things, that documentation is missing from the wiki as of yet, would be nice to have that to know what flag is what :)
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: guess viewers will work with both
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: only taking new on the new formats
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: but that is SL..
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: nothing for opensim still
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Did anyone else have a question for today before we run out of time?
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: and opensim may never go that path
[12:02] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: TY for putting up with me today.  I wish I could come to these more often.  It's in the middle of my work day
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: as i said, no code on viewers for opensim to see
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, shift your lunch break. ;)
[12:02] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: hehe
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: so just rumors about what is happening at SL.. :)
[12:03] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Yes nothing to see yet so its just talk
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: yes and anything s/l implements will be years anyway
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: seems they do have code.. closed source one
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: a lot some tell
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, If you aren't able to attend very often do make use of the IRC channel and the mailing list to continue discussion about the topic.
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: might they close source the viewer?
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: the voice part is closed source
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: like havoc physics
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: so they may add more closed parts
[12:04] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: even considering that does violate GPL
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: the can work around it
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: that would resolve the botted content issue
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: they
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: at least for new stuff
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: nahh that only depends on the will of the pirates
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: a old thing..  you oyu can see it, you can steal it
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Not like SL doesn't take content from OpenSim illegally and they make it a lot harder to get such issues resolved than some grids I talked to in the past
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: in case of movies that was even literally ppl went to movies with cameras
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: then sould the copies
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: In case we run long again today I will need to head out around the bottom of the hour as I may be involved in a product demo being given by someone I'm helping.
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: thats what i was saying about s/l only protecting its own creators
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: think it is more abotu protecting them selfs
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: since they do own all content at sl
[12:07] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Yeah I need to duck out as well. Again TY for the great discussion and for taking my question. I'll plan on sharing some code in the future and we'll see where it goes
[12:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Straight up told that person that OpenSim doesn't produce content so nothing could be stolen from there
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Mike. Thanks for dropping by. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.
[12:08] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Have a freat day everyone!
[12:08] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: great even
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: You too.
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: oh htere is content creation at opensim!!
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: Tc Mike
[12:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I had to write a pretty long email to explain a few things and vouch for stuff
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Keep in mind the two times of the year when the clocks change. Perhaps that will make it easier for you to drop in.
[12:08] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: nods. I'll try and see if I can come more often
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: i like more the 2 times a day a old broke watch is right
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: deep philosophic thing
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: ^^
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: only after a bottle of vino
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: ofc a modern broken  digital UI clock is always broken
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: never right :)
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: The ones where the time was never set are always right twice a day as they always flash 12. Only right once a day if they include an AM/PM indicator.
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other last minute items for today or are we done for today?
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: I was trying hard to not say anything  for the meeting but failed
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: Mike's fault
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: ofc :p
[12:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bye all
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: As there appears to nothing more for today I will say thank you for dropping by. See you again next week.
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Selby.
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: cya selby.Evans
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: tc Selby

[12:09] Arielle Popstar: only after a bottle of vino [12:10] Ubit Umarov: ofc a modern broken digital UI clock is always broken [12:10] Ubit Umarov: never right :) [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: The ones where the time was never set are always right twice a day as they always flash 12. Only right once a day if they include an AM/PM indicator. [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other last minute items for today or are we done for today? [12:12] Arielle Popstar: I was trying hard to not say anything for the meeting but failed [12:12] Arielle Popstar: Mike's fault [12:13] Ubit Umarov: ofc :p [12:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bye all [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: As there appears to nothing more for today I will say thank you for dropping by. See you again next week. [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Selby. [12:13] Ubit Umarov: cya selby.Evans [12:13] Arielle Popstar: tc Selby

mply a more structural definition of entire opensim... [11:51] Ubit Umarov: depends [11:52] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Right. And so long as there is a way to have that discussion I'm sure we can work stuff out [11:52] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Creating a trusted metaverse so to speak, of grids that resolve such problems among themselves and effectively shun bad actors out is a bit easier to achieve than trying to write software on the server end to protect things, especially in the open HG environment [11:53] Ubit Umarov: don't think that will ever happen [11:53] Arielle Popstar: being that opensim can be run by anyone, it only takes a few to spoil it for others but I will point out the ffocus should really be on content from Opensim creators. Trying to protect it all is a big chunk to chew [11:53] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: A trusted hypergrid is precisely on my/our radar [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, for the record what is NGC? [11:53] Ubit Umarov: ppl keep wating pirate movies and listening to pirate music [11:53] Ubit Umarov: and those spend rivers of gold on content protection... [11:54] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Next Generation Core. it's an attempt to upgrade tech and build a curated OpenSim that addresses issues like this. [11:54] Ubit Umarov: and all defenders of new things, should just read even watch a movie about Enigma [11:54] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I can share a URL to the project if you like [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, ty [11:55] Ubit Umarov: of names like.. "Next Generation Core".. well whatever [11:55] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: NGC was a play off of Star Trek [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, Please do. Other may read the log of the meeting and want more information. [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:55] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I mean if a user comes in from a grid called copykat, what exactly should I expect... creating a full trust ring in the metaverse is hard, but being a bit proactive about what comes in and identifying the likely sources of trouble is not that complex. [11:55] Ubit Umarov: Next generations is just star trek thing.. period :p [11:55] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: https://github.com/OpenSim-NGC [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, thanks for the link. [11:55] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: In the same way Sasquatch is a play off of Yeti [11:56] Ubit Umarov: nahh spin off of generation is Picard [11:56] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: I track core pretty closely [11:56] Ubit Umarov: well and a few more [11:56] Ubit Umarov: that was very easy last week :) [11:57] Arielle Popstar: how much demand do you think there wouldd be for Opensim if we go back to pre mesh days? [11:57] Ubit Umarov: who would want pre mesh ?? [11:57] Arielle Popstar: you :) [11:58] Ubit Umarov: ahh avatars... and a few other things [11:58] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: yeah I'm not sure why we would. I'm sort of excited about things moving forward. The GLTF and PBR stuff the labs is doing is interesting. [11:58] Ubit Umarov: seems new viewers will have totally diferent meshes soon [11:58] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: nods [11:58] Arielle Popstar: oh? [11:59] Ubit Umarov: yeah GLTF they had to pick bad protocols as always [11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: All mesh bodies I have tried just kinda looked dull and didn't really react to the shape sliders which is a bit sad, granted I only sampled what we have in OpenSim [11:59] Arielle Popstar: has that to do with vulkan? [11:59] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Well you can watermark a GLTF stream. Which gets to IP protection again. [11:59] Ubit Umarov: well i see no tpv with code on that... so that still does not exist for me [11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Ruth and Roth projects kinda died on that hill too sadly [11:59] Ubit Umarov: no ariellle [12:00] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Vulkan is a different rendering tech. More low level [12:00] Ubit Umarov: they are just changign mesh formats [12:00] Ubit Umarov: and materials [12:00] Ubit Umarov: for SL [12:00] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Right [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: I think it is a bit limiting when you can't change the size of a mesh. It would be nice to see that restriction lifted. [12:00] Ubit Umarov: openGL/vulcan is other talk.. a lower level one [12:00] Ubit Umarov: err lower in tech ladder :) [12:00] Arielle Popstar: will it not break existing content? [12:01] Ubit Umarov: yeap [12:01] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: But Mike if you are fiddling with perms might you be inclined to share the permission flags and such things, that documentation is missing from the wiki as of yet, would be nice to have that to know what flag is what :) [12:01] Ubit Umarov: guess viewers will work with both [12:01] Ubit Umarov: only taking new on the new formats [12:01] Ubit Umarov: but that is SL.. [12:01] Ubit Umarov: nothing for opensim still [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Did anyone else have a question for today before we run out of time? [12:02] Ubit Umarov: and opensim may never go that path [12:02] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: TY for putting up with me today. I wish I could come to these more often. It's in the middle of my work day [12:02] Ubit Umarov: as i said, no code on viewers for opensim to see [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, shift your lunch break. ;) [12:02] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: hehe [12:03] Ubit Umarov: so just rumors about what is happening at SL.. :) [12:03] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Yes nothing to see yet so its just talk [12:03] Arielle Popstar: yes and anything s/l implements will be years anyway [12:03] Ubit Umarov: seems they do have code.. closed source one [12:03] Ubit Umarov: a lot some tell [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, If you aren't able to attend very often do make use of the IRC channel and the mailing list to continue discussion about the topic. [12:04] Arielle Popstar: might they close source the viewer? [12:04] Ubit Umarov: the voice part is closed source [12:04] Ubit Umarov: like havoc physics [12:04] Ubit Umarov: so they may add more closed parts [12:04] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Nods [12:04] Ubit Umarov: even considering that does violate GPL [12:04] Ubit Umarov: the can work around it [12:04] Arielle Popstar: that would resolve the botted content issue [12:05] Ubit Umarov: they [12:05] Arielle Popstar: at least for new stuff [12:05] Ubit Umarov: nahh that only depends on the will of the pirates [12:05] Ubit Umarov: a old thing.. you oyu can see it, you can steal it [12:05] Ubit Umarov: :p [12:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Not like SL doesn't take content from OpenSim illegally and they make it a lot harder to get such issues resolved than some grids I talked to in the past [12:06] Ubit Umarov: in case of movies that was even literally ppl went to movies with cameras [12:06] Ubit Umarov: then sould the copies [12:06] Ubit Umarov: lol [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: In case we run long again today I will need to head out around the bottom of the hour as I may be involved in a product demo being given by someone I'm helping. [12:06] Arielle Popstar: thats what i was saying about s/l only protecting its own creators [12:07] Ubit Umarov: think it is more abotu protecting them selfs [12:07] Ubit Umarov: since they do own all content at sl [12:07] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Yeah I need to duck out as well. Again TY for the great discussion and for taking my question. I'll plan on sharing some code in the future and we'll see where it goes [12:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Straight up told that person that OpenSim doesn't produce content so nothing could be stolen from there [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Mike. Thanks for dropping by. Looking forward to seeing where this goes. [12:08] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: Have a freat day everyone! [12:08] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: great even [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: You too. [12:08] Ubit Umarov: oh htere is content creation at opensim!! [12:08] Arielle Popstar: Tc Mike [12:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I had to write a pretty long email to explain a few things and vouch for stuff [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Keep in mind the two times of the year when the clocks change. Perhaps that will make it easier for you to drop in. [12:08] Mike.Chase @utopiaskyegrid.utopiaskye.com:8002: nods. I'll try and see if I can come more often [12:09] Ubit Umarov: i like more the 2 times a day a old broke watch is right [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:09] Ubit Umarov: deep philosophic thing [12:09] Arielle Popstar: ^^ [12:09] Arielle Popstar: only after a bottle of vino [12:10] Ubit Umarov: ofc a modern broken digital UI clock is always broken [12:10] Ubit Umarov: never right :) [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: The ones where the time was never set are always right twice a day as they always flash 12. Only right once a day if they include an AM/PM indicator. [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other last minute items for today or are we done for today? [12:12] Arielle Popstar: I was trying hard to not say anything for the meeting but failed [12:12] Arielle Popstar: Mike's fault [12:13] Ubit Umarov: ofc :p [12:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bye all [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: As there appears to nothing more for today I will say thank you for dropping by. See you again next week. [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Selby. [12:13] Ubit Umarov: cya selby.Evans [12:13] Arielle Popstar: tc Selby